Honorary Chair
Sir Edmund Hillary 1919-2008
President
Daniel A. Bennett
Honorary President
Don Walsh, Ph.D.
|
|
|
|
|
Honorary Chair Sir Edmund Hillary 1919-2008 |
President Daniel A. Bennett |
Honorary President Don Walsh, Ph.D. |
|
PROJECTS
INTERVIEW with Gregory Deyermenjian FN'88
Deyermenjian joined The Explorers Club in 1988 and is a Fellow National (FN).
KATZMAN: Do you remember when you first heard of The Explorers Club? DEYERMENJIAN: Somehow I came to see a copy of The Explorers Journal. And the editor then was a gentleman by the name of Tim O. Rockwell. I wrote and said I wanted to subscribe. So I was a subscriber to the Journal for a number of years, and I concurrently started doing my own expeditions. And then a few years later applied for membership, and there I was. KATZMAN: What does an explorer need and expect from a club like this? DEYERMENJIAN: I think an explorer needs and should be able to expect people that also are going to share—if not immediate geographical interests, if not that immediate field that one is into—an appreciation of explorations that one makes; an appreciation of what it takes and the good and bad, the difficult, and the necessity of actually going beyond at least where one has gone previously. And coming back with findings. So it's sort of a like-minded community; I think that is the most important thing. KATZMAN: And, would you have feelings or concerns about the Club that you’d like to share? DEYERMENJIAN: Yeah. One thing I'd like to say about the Club is that something that I think is very positive, very good, is what's embodied in this very interview going on right now. Just seeing that members are given the opportunity to express what they've done, I think is an indication of a good direction for the Club, an appreciation of those that make up the Club. So many times in the past I was concerned that there was too much interest in bubbling about because Sean Connery was going to come, or some celebrity. Celebrity is fine, I don't begrudge them that. But it’s not necessarily related at all to exploration. While I understand the need for some financial base, the business end of it, sometimes it appears that that takes up too large a percentage of time, with a minuscule amount of real expedition and exploration lore, tips, the sharing of the nitty-gritty aspects of exploration, how good it feels out there in the field. That sometimes just gets overwhelmed by the logistics of running the Club. And while I can appreciate that, one can't lose sight of what it is that brings us here originally. Some of the most really intrepid explorers that I know, while I've told them about The Explorers Club, they have no interest because they don't join clubs. Part of the reason they don't join clubs is that clubs can so often, for whatever reason, become too bureaucratic. And so the more that it does have an appreciation of and emphasis upon being in the field, and the experiences of the individual explorer, the more it will attract some more of those really intrepid unsung people. KATZMAN: I know you are the Chairman of the New England Chapter. Tell me a little bit about your Chapter. How many people? DEYERMENJIAN: Sure. It's always a difficult question when someone asks, how many people do you have in your chapter? It's a logical question, but how do you define it? I mean, we could include many of those members that just happen to live within the confines of the six New England states, that don't have anything to do with New England. Every chapter has its own challenges, but for New England, the southern part, Connecticut, is so close to New York, and then most of us are around Boston, where we have our meetings. But then if you live in Western Massachusetts, Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, you're going to be pretty far from that. Yet, that having been said, we try to always keep our emphasis on the individual explorer and what our own personal interests are. So that those who have an interest in doing an expedition to a particular geographical area will know who to go to for tips. And these tips are everything from people to look up, to mundane things like wrapping your backpack in a good heavy garbage bag so you won't have to crowd your tent with it in the evening. Or wearing work gloves in the jungle; regular construction work gloves to avoid the thorns. So we try to keep the emphasis on the interactions between us: on expedition lore, tips, things that are going to be useful for that nitty-gritty aspect of an expedition. KATZMAN: Are there monthly meetings? DEYERMENJIAN: Yeah, we try and have meetings every month that are preceded by a social hour, and then whatever business we have to do. And one of the things we also emphasize is our contacts with like-minded organizations. There's the Harvard Travelers Club. So we get a lot of people that ordinarily wouldn't be coming to our meetings because when we send our announcement, it also goes to the Secretary of the Harvard Travelers Club, and he sends it out to all his people. And they're good people. So there's that cross-fertilization. KATZMAN: Was there a pivotal moment that led you on the path to exploration? DEYERMENJIAN: I don't know if it was a pivotal moment so much as just a gradual progression of being a young boy and a beardless youth who was interested in it. The first thing I was interested in was being an astronaut. And then it came to dinosaurs. And then reading; it came through reading, really. And then wanting to go to Tibet. I was an anthropology major, but my roommate as an undergraduate was a Latin American history major. And he got me interested in South America; so that's a lot closer than Tibet. And once I started going there—it was hippie travel the first time—and then you just keep getting under the surface. And now that's been my main interest, with more than a couple of dozen trips there. KATZMAN: Did you read a lot about explorers, then, as a young child? DEYERMENJIAN: Oh, yeah. Coming upon the right books and being turned on to the wonders of a library and becoming in love with that kind of thing, is what really I think is just so important. KATZMAN: Did you ever make it to Tibet? DEYERMENJIAN: No, no, never been to Tibet. KATZMAN: Tell me about your expeditions to South America. DEYERMENJIAN: Well, the interesting thing about it is that it is just a plane ride away and yet it is another world. Another world, another century. And yet, there are parts of Lima that are as chic and sophisticated as New York or Milan. All the way to the highlands, where there are descendents of the Incas, speaking Quechua, basically monolingual, just a smattering of Spanish, some without any Spanish. All the way down into the jungle areas where there are individual tribes. There are still at least three uncontacted tribal groups in the jungles of Peru, who don't even think of or know of the concept of Peru. So you have a country where it runs the gamut from the most sophisticated life possible, to life as it was hundreds and hundreds of years ago. And so once I started to get within Peru and get beneath the surface—people often say to me, you know, well, how come you haven't gone to Europe. I'm not very well traveled because I keep getting further beneath the surface of Peru. And I guess Peru has that sort of quality. KATZMAN: So what happens as you become more immersed in other cultures like this? How does that change how you see the world? DEYERMENJIAN: There are two ways in which getting immersed down there can grab you. One is the interpersonal, in that while there are such advantages to being here in the United States—and I'm very much the patriot—nonetheless, when you start spending time in a place where the culture is still as it was many years ago, you come to so appreciate everything being on a man-to-man, person-to-person, eye-to-eye, handshake, your-word-is-your-bond kind of level, and where the joy is not in what's the current movie, but in interacting with those around you. Just as it is on an expedition where your entertainment is the entertainment that the person sitting right across from you is providing. So, on that level, it's just becoming addictive. And in a country such as Peru—although I've made expeditions in Brazil and in Ecuador—you're treated like a king, being from the United States. And you're only limited by your own energy. You just need to have the will power and the tenacity to stick with it and not lose your cool when things appear to be all going wrong and the officials are all denying you entry. Just stay cool, never be insulting, never be pompous or high and mighty, just stick with it, and eventually, at the last minute, it all just falls into place. There are undocumented ruins, unknown ruins, ancient Inca ruins. And so you can do something that no one else has ever done, but it's up to you. And so you're not bound by a lot of strictures that there are here. KATZMAN: What is life like in the jungle, an immersion in the jungle compared to New York City? How do you adjust to that? DEYERMENJIAN: I guess one adjusts only to the extent that one sort of becomes momentarily used to a certain constant low level of discomfort. People ask, "What's the most dangerous thing that occurred to you?" They're expecting me to talk about falling off cliffs, or jaguars, or poisonous snakes. But it really comes down more to the rigors of total exhaustion, especially in the high-altitude jungle where I go. The main thing is being able to just put one foot in front of the other, because it's up and down, up and down, everything's slippery, everything's slimy. If you're in the shade, you might be chilled. If you're in the sun, you're too hot and you can't wait to get into the shade. So you're never in an equilibrium of comfort. There's the equilibrium that those who are from there have. While I'm taking off layers and putting them on constantly after the change, my Peruvian campesino partners will have the same skimpy little tennis jacket on, be it freezing cold or be it hot, and they never appear to have discomfort. Many times people will say to me—sometimes good friends—I want to go with you, I want to go on this expedition. And I'll tell them: You really don't. Because unless you're passionately interested in this particular subject and finding this particular document or this particular ruin, after a day or two of just putting one foot in front of the other, being bored (it's 98 percent boredom), sweaty, dirty, itchy, day after day—you're going to hate me. And you're going to not want to be here. KATZMAN: Now, I'm curious: What drives you? Scientific research? Sheer adventure? DEYERMENJIAN: Well, the combination—I always meticulously document the expedition, everything from feelings and impressions all the way through, and especially with specific, concrete information as to where we went, who it was, what exactly we saw, what exactly we found, and documenting in writing, film, camera. So the adventure end of it will be that which may occur. But I do not like and never set out to have adventure, per se. Because with adventure always comes unnecessary danger and always comes the possibility you could lose all your film, and then where are you? All this money, all this time, and all this risk for what? And so you have to have the physical, I think, ability and the determination to withstand and successfully negotiate whatever adventure comes along. So your primary goal, in my estimation, has to really be what is the scientific goal you want. And if in getting from Point A to Point B, we have to take certain calculated risks, fine. But those that seek out risks, it might be fine for them, but I've never been a fan of stunts or breaking a record, per se, just to break that record. KATZMAN: What do you have planned for the future? What do you look for in the future for exploring? Do have you your sights set on a certain place? DEYERMENJIAN: Yeah, sure. KATZMAN: You're telling me there are still unexplored places. I love to hear that because we often think they are all explored, that everyone knows where everything is. DEYERMENJIAN: I wrote a piece for the New England Chapter Newsletter a number of years ago. And I have recently given it to Jim Chester, hoping that it will get into the Explorers Log which I think is a really good publication. But the name of it is, "What's Left to Explore?" And what it says is that, really, when you get out there, there are so many areas where it is uncomfortable to be there, it is not fun, where it is day after day of monotony, such vast expanses, in South America and other places as well. The vice chairman of our chapter, he's an Arctic man, but yet he went to Borneo, and so he discovered this huge, unknown, undocumented canyon. He gets in with the local people and he takes seriously their tales and their legends, what they tell him, and so they come to like him. And so, in those areas where it's not fun or popular to go to this day because of that discomfort factor, that sort of weeds out visitors. Sure, the Spaniards began coming over 500 years ago. And yet most routes that most normal human beings take will be sort of like water finding it's own level. They go by way of the rivers, et cetera. But as far as what's over that nearly insurmountable range, where you have to climb up through this smelly, stinky moss? Even the hardy indigenous people going with me are going there for the first time. They're curious as to what the heck's over there, as well. It's not glamorous, necessarily, to go to the really remote places. When I first went to Peru in 1980 to walk the Inca Trail to Machu Pichu, I became aware of this other site, Vilcabamba, that was the rebel Incan outpost of Manco Inca to the northwest. KATZMAN: What's the height of that? DEYERMENJIAN: Machu Pichu is around 8,300 feet. And Vilcabamba, though it was an extensive Incan outpost, is down around 3,000 feet. So it's "high-altitude" jungle, but low by highland mountain standards. It is a subtropical and tropical region. And so, in getting there, I became aware of all the legends of a further refuge, further to the east, known as Paititi. So the most concrete end being to actually find what could be a major Incan city, which is possible. But I came to see that what was most important, while looking for that, was gathering the information and writing the story of the furthest Incan penetrations, the Inca being highland peoples, into these jungle areas where they're not known to have gone. And so we were documenting the story of Paititi, which may turn out to be a particular city. It could also be located in the widely dispersed ruins throughout the high altitude jungle where they had coca plantations, because that was a very important Incan ability. That the sort of agglomerative effect of all these widely-scattered ruins led to this legend of Paititi. Or is it that this legend of Paititi, this marvelous city of gold, really referred to the Incan capital of Cusco, to the jungle Indians? When they start hearing about this magical city of gold, further away, it could well have been that they're talking about Cusco. Or it could be a place in Bolivia, you know, much, much further away. So there's always more to be written about the identification of Paititi. And I'm putting together a book that I hope to be the definitive book in English on that. So there is always more to do, always something further than my last expedition. On our next expedition we hope to finally reach the end of this particular Incan trail, this Incan road of stone that we discovered in '89 and then followed further in '93, and then in '99 when we had a helicopter. But each time it's so far and goes through such difficult territory that we always end up using up all our time, energy, and supplies before the end. And so we hope, with this next one, to actually get there quick enough, knowing that we have to do it really quick and make progress, so hopefully we can do that. KATZMAN: Give me a quick down and dirty: What does it take to form an expedition to do this? How many people? What supplies? DEYERMENJIAN: It's an ongoing process. If one says, okay, now I'm going to start to plan the expedition, it'll be too late. In fact, as I'm returning, as we're heading for the city from the jungle, soon as we finally get to a town where you can catch a truck, as soon as I get on that truck, I forget that I vowed never to do it again, never to put myself through that again. And right away I'm planning for the next one. And so it's the planning. And then all year trying to garner the funds, applying for this and that grant. And trying to get the equipment, and repair the equipment one has. Because your success, sometimes your life, really depends upon your equipment. So it is an all-year-long project. In addition there's the physical preparation; you can't wait too long to get in shape for it. Because I work out all year, people think that I must be a superman, but I work out all year so that I can be the person in last place that can, at least, keep up. Because the highland Indians and the lowland Indians that I'm with, their life is more physical activity in one day than we have in a year. KATZMAN: Do you then have already, obviously, contacts there, people you work with down there? DEYERMENJIAN: That's a key. KATZMAN: How does that work? DEYERMENJIAN: It comes about only through having laid the foundation for it. If you think you can go down there and make a major find your first trip, you're going to be greatly disappointed. You've got to go down there and say, I'm going to do what I can and lay the foundation that I can. So if you actually come back the next year, and the next year after that, people start to just open up, to really open up to you. And so my key really has been people like Paulino and Goyo, with whom it has been an almost 20-year relationship. They're the keys. They're bilingual, trilingual, and it's their territory, their turf. I see as the greatest gift of an explorer, not intrepidness or hardiness, but the appreciation of people. And through my returning year after year, they realize, yeah, he's serious about this. And they do what they do so that we can find and document these sites. KATZMAN: Tell me a little about your family and your upbringing. DEYERMENJIAN: My father, who died in 1965, was Krikor, which in Armenian—his parents were both born in Armenia—means Gregory. And my mother is Josephine Papalia. Her parents were born and raised in Calabria, Italy. I was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts and grew up in Dorchester, the old part of Boston. So I went to the oldest primary school, the Edward Southworth. And then to the oldest grammar school, the Mather School. And then the oldest school of any kind, Boston Latin School. Then I had to go for the new after that, so then I went to U Mass in Amherst, Massachusetts. I majored in anthropology. As I said, I went to South America the first time in 1974, as a hippie traveler. Came back, couldn't get my old job in a book selling place back. And so I went to the Fernald State School for mentally retarded people and started working as a direct care staff there. Fell in love with my clients. And then an opportunity came up to get a Masters degree in Special Education, Severe Special Needs, so I went to Leslie College for that and qualified for a civil service psychology position. So my real vocation these 25 years has been as a psychologist. I'm not a psychologist, but my position is psychologist, delivering services to mentally retarded clients. I was directing the Department of Psychology at part of the state school system, and in 1985 I went to Clark University, where I got a Masters degree in International Development and Social Change. But I came to see that those that had the positions I wanted, had been in the position for 10, 12 years. There were already 100 applicants for it. They were totally bilingual and trilingual. And so I went back to Fernald, and that's where I get my paycheck"in that field. One good thing about being a state employee is you get a good amount of vacation time, which allows the expeditions. KATZMAN: Is there an explorer that has inspired especially you? DEYERMENJIAN: Yeah. I would say a couple of guys: Hiram Bingham, as far as Machu Picchu and his discoveries at Vilcabamba. He had tenacity; he knew what he was after when the other members of the group didn't. There was never a clue that came up that he wasn't duty-bound to check out. And so I guess it's that quality of his that I go for, and that made for his success. He also had luck. But that kind of luck in an explorer is what comes from the preparation, the determination; and then things start clicking. And another gentleman would be Gene Savoy. Savoy is a member of this Club, who has his own Explorers Foundation based in Reno, Nevada. And, you know, he has some controversial theories. But he's never been afraid to buck the tide, put out what he thinks of the theories of contact between the Eastern world and Central America, the culture-hero Viracocha of South America really morphing into a Quetzalcoatl, the main culture-hero in Central America. He wrote a very influential book, Antisuyu, that was really the first thing that turned a lot of young guys on to the exploration of South America. And, well, in these jungle areas, there's stuff yet to be found; there's a mark that can be made. So I have to say some of the individual qualities of each of those two gentlemen. KATZMAN: What would be your advice to a young person wanting to explore? DEYERMENJIAN: I'd say, please do realize that if, when you're young, you pick an area, and you decide to become an expert on that area, and you start reading on it, and you start learning things that other people don't know, then that in and of itself—as long as you stick with it—is going to allow you to shine. Even if you don't get a formal education in it, just from gathering what you can from libraries and museums, the sheer accumulation of it matters. Those that disparage hard facts and numbers and information are doing a disservice, because it's from accumulating that stuff that worthwhile concepts and ideas begin to bubble. You can then put forth a proposal and impress those that need to be impressed to buy into what you're doing and support it, because we all need support to do this.
|
|
| Contact Us |
|
© 2002 The Explorers Club Legal Notice
The Explorers Club is a not-for-profit organization as defined under Section 170(b) (I) (A) (vi) and 501 (c) (3) of the Internal Revenue Code. The Explorers Club ®, World Center for Exploration ®, The Flag and the Seal are registered trademarks of The Explorers Club. Use by others is strictly prohibited. Photographs appearing on this website are used by permission and may not be copied or re-used in any manner. |
